Hey guys! Do you have a favorite post of ours? Tell us about it! Send us an ask or a submission about your favorite post and we’ll queue your message with that post today! Inbox is currently empty, so feel free to send!
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So yeah. We still got nuthin. But, we’ll be running this bit all day. Guys! Please! Let us know which posts - graphics or questions (or announcement xD) - you liked best, and we’ll put it up today. ^_^
This is the day where I post my favorite graphics! Now, as a warning, I generally haven’t paid much attention to this whole side of things, but hey! Let’s see how it goes!
Anonymous said: Am I the only one who sees that the Adventist church is in apostasy? Satan is trying to infiltrate our churches, trying to distract us from the importance of the message. It's the last days of our earth's history but all I see is laodacia when I go to church. Laodecia and shame. And I have been to several churches. It's all the same: a pastor who teaches stuff from the sunday churches (or non christian stuff) , and apologetic adventists who are ashamed of how precious the truth they have is.
Yvonne: Hello, Anon! Sorry it took us so long.
Howie: Yeah… uh… stuff kept coming up. Life stuff. You guys saw the post about my brother… I very much thank you for your prayers… He’s doing well. REGARDLESS. we’re here to answer a question.
Yvonne: And we have been thinking about your question, and how to tackle it. Howie and I both wanted answer this together, and so here we are.
Howie: Aye. We decided on a chat format. It’d be the most… interactive… and i HOPE effective format that we could think of.
Howie: So… we should probably get started on that question now… rather than… y’know… babbling…
Yvonne: Yeah, good idea. Before we do anything, I think we should explain “Laodicea”, especially for the less familar.
Howie: Definately a good idea. Laodicea is one of the seven churches that the Son of Man told John to send a book to, that book describing his visions, in Rev. 1:11.
Howie: I understand that each of those seven churches each got a personal letter-note-thing from John. Thing is, each of those churches were both literal and prohpetic.
Howie: Ah… upon closer inspection, those letter-note things were from God Himself to the ANGELS of those churches.
Yvonne: Wait, really? Reference!
Howie: Heh… hang on a moment while I copy-paste.
Yvonne: (this goes to show you, Anon and everyone else, we’re not absolutely knowlegable ourselves. We’re just students taking what we know and building upon that)
Howie: “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Ephesus. This is the message from the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand, the one who walks among the seven gold lampstands:” Rev 2:1. Each of the letter-notes begins as such, though differing in the titles that are dictated, starting with “the one who…” and describing a different point of God’s awesomeness.
Yvonne: That’s… pretty epic there.
Howie: This is the message from the one who is the First and the Last, who was dead but is now alive:…
Howie: This is the message from the one with the sharp two-edged sword:…
Howie: This is the message from the Son of God, whose eyes are like flames of fire, whose feet are like polished bronze:…
Howie: honestly, i was surprised to find that myself.
Yvonne: Oh, getting back to what we were saying, the churches mentioned all existed in that time period, mentioned in earlier books like Colossians, but they also represent the overall church in their different stages in time. The order mentioned is the order of time, Laodicea being the last. Each letter to the separate churches had a different description of the Son of God, representing what He could bring that church
Howie: That last bit there? lemme look at that a moment…
Howie: (I actually only started doing research on this this morning… ‘bout 6pm now. Worked good portion of the day… haven’t delved too much into this myself)
Howie: If what you say on that last bit is true, what do you make of the description given to the angel of Laodicea?
Howie: "This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:" Rev. 3:14b
Yvonne: Well, the full message extends to verse 22. In it, it mentions that Laodicea has lost sight of the true Gospel of God. Can you bring in the whole thing?
Howie: 14 “Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen—the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s new creation:
15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! 16 But since you are like lukewarm water, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth! 17 You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. 18 So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19 I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference.
20 “Look! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in, and we will share a meal together as friends. 21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
22 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”
Howie: Please note, I’m taking this from the NLT.
Yvonne: Right. So, Laodicea has lost its true purpose as a church. Instead of depending on God, they are depending on their own wealth and possessions and such. A church like that needs to be recreated in the will of God, needs a True Witness to testify of what His sacrifice was all about. So we can learn that the Gospel is about not leaning on ourselves, but looking towards Him. See what I mean?
Howie: Pretty much, the idea that a “true witness” is needed to tell the church that thinks they’re pretty set on their own the likely-painful truth that they’re not. yes?
Yvonne: Generally, yeah.
Howie: Alright, minor interesting point analyzed. What’s up next?
Yvonne: Well, it’s a point to be taken into consideration when we look at the tag “Laodicea” being applied to our modern-day church.
Howie: Right. Okay, so first, I think the point was to familiarize the readers with the significance of the Laodicean church. Something else I think may be necessary is to define the term “apostasy” he used.
Yvonne: Ok. I’ll leave that to you, good sir.
Howie: Pulling it off of Dictionary.com (wonderful source, by the way…), I’m getting “a total desertion of or departure from one’s religion, principles, party, cause, etc.”
Howie: It should also be noted that the original Greek term “apostasia” meant “a standing away, withdrawing”.
Howie: Interesting to note, the word “Apostasy” is NOT used in the NLT OR the KJV, except as a header. Even there, it’s only used TWICE in the New Testament. Once to head 2 Thessalonians 2, and once to head 1 Timothy 4.
Howie: In neither case is it used in direct relation to the church, literal or prophetic, of Laodicea.
Yvonne: Though I can see how it could be applied to it.
Howie: Only vaguely, in my opinion. The English definition of the word “apostasy” necessitates a distinct DEPARTURE from religion… the Greek meaning means pretty much the same thing, but looks like it could be interpreted as “standing aside” from what I see, which would qualify it for association with Laodicea….
Yvonne: But the question still stands: has the Adventist church gone away from their purpose as a church?
Howie: That…. That seems to be a matter that COULD be debatable. In order to go that way though, we’d have to determine the actual purpose of the church AS a church.
Yvonne: You… darn it, you want a specific answer with back-up, don’t you?
Howie: Not necessarily. I’m looking more at the idea of “why did the church itself form?” Like, when the early Christians actually started gathering and stuff, what was the purpose?
Howie: I kinda doubt it involved ghost stories and roasted marshmallows….
Yvonne: … I laughed too much with that visual…
Yvonne: But, you basically just said you want a specific answer (what purpose did the early church serve?) with back up (because we’ll only get those answers from the Bible).
Howie: …Pretty much.
Yvonne: Keeping in mind that a church is more than bureaucracy and organization, but rather, it is the gathering of believers and the body of Christ… I think I can pull up some stuff here. Give me a moment.
Yvonne: ok, so. The Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20) is obviously one of our reasons for existing. So, going to all nations and baptizing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit can go on the list.
Yvonne: And teaching people to obey what Jesus has taught us.
Yvonne: The early church devoted themselves to prayer and fellowship and the teaching of the apostles (Acts 2:42). So, fellowship with God and man/each other.
Yvonne: This leads into us actually functioning as a community, as a body of Christ, and affirming each other (Ephesians 4).
Howie: Alright, lemme take a look at this…
Yvonne: But but but… I wasn’t done yet…
Howie: well, then, obviously continue.
Howie: i just wanna actually see some of what you’re looking up XD
Yvonne: Ok. then add in 1 Corinthians 10:31-33. Being an example and a witness to God.
Howie: I shall. Also, take a look at Acts 2:42, but extend to the end of the chapter.
Yvonne: Ahhhh, good catch there. Acts 2:42-47?
Howie: Yep. That seems to be what the earlier church was about: Coming together, sharing what you have, worshiping, sharing meals, and “enjoying the goodwill of all the people.”
Yvonne: *thumbs up*
Howie: I’d forgotten to note something earlier in plain terms.
Howie: Just remembering now.
Howie: no, we hadn’t actually determined that yet.
Howie: Wanted to say that we’d determined that Apostasy =/= Laodicea…. did we?
Howie: …I mean, it’s not used in the Bible in direct relation…
Yvonne: I don’t think Laodicea can be determined as absolutely stepping aside from the work of God. They weren’t hot, but they weren’t cold either. They were just… there.
Howie: Right… Then again, looking, the Anon didn’t directly tie the two together himself. Just strongly suggested it.
Yvonne: True. Maybe we should jump into the comparison of the modern-day church and Laodicea.
Howie: Well, we finished defining what the church is SUPPOSED to be… good way to tell if our church has apostated is to see what it is today, I guess.
Yvonne: Guess so. So, what was our list?
Howie: …We had a list? O_o
Yvonne: Howieeeeee… smh. (:P)
Howie: No, seriously….
Howie: If we had a list, please inform the readers. And me.
Yvonne: ok. So, what we gathered about the purpose of the church is:
1. To spread the Gospel (Matt. 28: 18-20)
2. To fellowship with God and man (Acts 2: 42)
3. Worship the Lord (Acts 2: 46)
4. Share what we have (Acts 2: 44)
5. Function as a community and a body (Eph. 4)
6. Be an example and a witness for God (1 Cor. 10: 31-33)
Yvonne: did I forget anything?
Howie: Not anything I can recall. But you know my memory.
Yvonne: (His memory sucks)
Howie: Yeah, pretty much.
Howie: Okay, so that’s what we’re supposed to be.
Yvonne: Is the Adventist church that list up there?
Howie: I’ve… uh…. I dunno, actually. There’s too many churches with too many standards and habits, even within the Adventist sect. Not to mention that even within a particular church family, those characteristics will vary from person to person.
Yvonne: Very true. Seventh-day Adventism is very big, and each individual home church has its different feel. But looking at the condition of the different regions of the church, maybe we can get an idea.
Howie: …you know, for some reason, i’m reading this and getting a documentary feel XD
Howie: Fact is, Yvonne actually went and asked a few friends about the circumstances at THEIR churches, as well as their views on the matter. We wanted to get as wide a breadth as possible.
Howie: …I forget where everyone was from. What areas are represented?
Yvonne: It’s mainly America. We have a New Englander, 2 people from the North East, 2 from the South, and 3 at the gateway to the Mid-West. Sorry I couldn’t get anyone from the West or even outside the country.
Yvonne: But if I were, I know that outside America, the story is very different
Howie: Entirely likely…
Howie: I read over the information that we got from our… volunteers, i guess.
Howie: Most of them seem to agree with the idea of the current church being in the prophetic period of Laodicea, though their reactions seemed slightly varied.
Yvonne: But still really interesting observations.
Yvonne: I basically asked them what their experiences have been within the SDA church and if our modern church is reflectant of Laodicea. One stated that it really depends on what local church you look at. Another said that many of us do love the Lord but get preoccupied with the responsibilities of this world. And another said that she’s experienced the younger generations being really on fire for God but the older generations lose their fervor.
Howie: I particularly agree with the one response, saying that we’re in the TIME of Laodicea, and that being here during this part of the timeline isn’t a problem. He states that the problem is that we’re STAYING the Laodicean church. His point is that “when we decide to break out of that mold is when we can finally begin the closing work.”
Howie: There is one thing I’d actually thought of while reading through all this.
Howie: It’s a thought as to WHY we are all Laodicean-like. It seems to me as though the young expect the elder members to move foreward due to experience and foresight, and wisdom that comes with age. But older members look at the youth’s vitality and energy, and most importantly, passion, and feel those days are behind them. They leave the responsibility to the young. It’s entirely possible that the generation gap keeps the two from working together much these days… or maybe there’s more at play.
Yvonne: There probably is. Around the world, there are lots of churches driven by the young people. Whenever I hear about them, it’s the youth bringing out the message and reaching to people. But the elders open up their homes and make things possible for them to have an actual place to worship. That’s even how it happened in Ghana when my family converted: my uncle wanted to open a church in the town and my grandmother opened up her home and even served fellowship lunch.
Howie: Okay, that right there? That’s awesome.
Howie: My own personal experience is rather different. I see the gap… with neither side really willing to do their part for the lack of the other’s experience or drive.
Howie: I actually don’t attend my home church much at all anymore.
Howie: But that’s mostly because when I stopped going, it fealt DEAD to me. It even FELT like my own father only went to say he did, so he could berate us for not.
Howie: My mother has been a huge help to our church community though…
Howie: …But the main reason that’s the case is that A) there’s a lack of willing participants, and B) my mother’s self-sacrificing to a fault.
Howie: I understand the church has changed since then… new pastor and all. Really helped. I just haven’t been able to bring myself back. Instead, when I do go to church, it’s typically to the one 20 minutes away rather than the one 2 minutes down the road.
Howie: (Also, I’m allergic to something in the rugs… always end up with a runny nose)
Howie: ….it’s true…
Yvonne: I understand your point of view; it’s kind of how my current home-church is now, or at least was. I grew up in 2 churches. My first church was huge and always trying to reach out to the community; my second one, my current home-church, has dwindled since I got there. A lot of the members didn’t want to bring in new members or participate, and a lot of the youth left because of the undesirability there. But things are improving. There are more adults doing ministry and evangelism, and the church is growing. But that never would have happened if there weren’t the select few that threw themselves into the fray first.
Yvonne: Plus, it may help that they don’t have many youth to depend on anymore, but that’s an entirely different subject.
Howie: I was in a touring handbell choir… visited a good few churches. It seems to me that the lower the percentage of youth there are in the church, the less passionate and driven they seem.
Yvonne: Well, they do say that the youth will bring in the End times, mostly because they are less bogged down with the troubles of this world.
Yvonne: and then college happens. >.<
Howie: Sorry, i’ve never actually heard that. Who is this “they” that say this?
Yvonne: well, it’s been said for a while. Ellen G. White has said it in her writings. I think the most famous one is in her book Education, “With such an army of workers as our youth, rightly trained, might furnish, how soon the message of a crucified, risen, and soon-coming Savior might be carried to the whole world!”. That sentiment has been carried on by our church ever since. I even remember Pastor Dwight Nelson devoting a sermon to that. I think it was called “A Laptop, a Cell Phone, and Plane Ticket”
Yvonne: And, apparently, we’ve proved their point.
Howie: …we have?
Howie: also, i fail to understand what those three items….
Howie: ah, forget it.
Yvonne: lol, watch the sermon. It’s segmented on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS6KwAv61f0) and there’s also the full version available (http://media.pmchurch.org/wmedia/2008-09-27_Primetime-4.wmv).
Howie: i’ll…. maybe…. check it out…
Howie: I honestly haven’t heard of that particular mindset.
Yvonne: Really? Ever?
Howie: My home church is pretty predominantly elder-folk.
Howie: Every sermon seemed geared towards the elder-folk.
Howie: The youth were usually treated and perceived as elderfolk-in-waiting.
Howie: As far as I’ve seen from my visits, it still IS that way.
Yvonne: Huh. I guess I was fortunate enough to grow up in churches that really tried to push the young people, no matter how uncomfortable
Yvonne: ….This is going to be a long post.
Howie: …No kidding.
Howie: Where were we in the grand scheme of things?
Yvonne: Adventist church = Laodicea, yes or no?
Yvonne: I think we established, prophetically, yes. right?
Howie: Literally, obviously not.
Yvonne: But also, as one of our volunteers said, that I find I agree with, “Being lukewarm is a trait that we find in the Christian church in general. It’s the state we’re all in right now in my opinion. To put the blame on any single Christian denomination is an unfair accusation.”
Howie: This is true.
Yvonne: So, what we’ve established is that currently, our church is in a Laodicean state, but we don’t have to stay wedged there. God is calling a remnant, and it’s our job to step up to the plate.
Howie: How do you mean, “calling a remnant”? A remnant of what?
Yvonne: A remnant people. A people that will spread the Gospel to the world and stand strong in the presence of God.
Howie: Ah, but remaining from what?
Howie: Why do they “remain”?
Howie: "remnant" pretty much means "those who remain"
Yvonne: Because everyone else has been… contaminated? (horrible word choice) They would have been decieved by Satan’s ploys. The remnant are those who “keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus.” (Rev. 12:17), even under persecution.
Yvonne: Huh, Wikipedia has a page on the Adventist belief of the Remnant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remnant_(Seventh-day_Adventist_belief)). They have everything, don’t they?
Howie: That’s an oddity.
Yvonne: the Wikipedia page or the remnant?
Howie: the wikipedia. XD
Yvonne: anyway, back on topic
Howie: So, if we go back to the original question, we’ve defined apostasy; we’ve determined that we DO seem to be in the time represented by Laodicea;…. what’s up next?
Howie: Did we ever determine if the word “apostasy” applies to the Adventist church/community?
Yvonne: I think we established that we couldn’t entirely because the church hasn’t completely shyed away from what it is to be a church of God.
Howie: …this is true.
Howie: When I went establishing that though, I was specifically trying to disassociate the term from Laodicea
Yvonne: And we established that the church is Laodicea, but Laodecia is not exactly apostasy.
Howie: Alright then, that bit’s settled…
Howie: It seems to me as though the Anon who asked this question was attempting to call attention to the way the church isn’t giving out the message it should be. Perhaps that’s the case. I don’t know from personal experience.
Yvonne: I understand that point of view. It seems that the church is shying away from the hard-hitting messages more and more. The Daniel and Revelation Seminars don’t seem as rampant as they did 10 or 15 years ago.
Yvonne: Those are the messages that define and separate us.
Howie: I’d agree. Though I think that the main reason those particular messages lost… ‘popularity’… is because after hammering them in, people stop really getting impact of it. It becomes commonplace and… to many, dull.
Yvonne: It’s somewhat true, though. How many of us can drone on about the Three Angels’ Message and not even bat an eye? It’s sad, really.
Howie: Depressingly, I find myself almost on the same boat. But then, I’m ADHD. A sermon actually has to be interesting to me to hold my attention. That doesn’t happen that often. I actually work better with small group studies, as I can actually participate and interact. The whole pastor-sermon dealie feels more like a lecture I know I won’t get tested on.
Yvonne: So, I guess it comes down to making the message have a meaning for us again.
Howie: Pretty much. That message SHOULD have an impact. I just personally think the current format for teaching it doesn’t exactly work for everyone. Teaching it so often has burnt out a lot of people. The message isn’t necessarily dead… It’s just that it’s…. kinda recovering, I’d say. Not the message itself… just our ability and inclination to get it out there.
Yvonne: Aka, the CHURCH is recovering.
Howie: …after having burnt out on that message. Yeah, pretty much.
Yvonne: So… I think after 2 hours, we’ve gotten to “We’re very much Laodicea, but we’re working on it.”
Howie: Also, “Apostasy isn’t the right word to use to describe the church at this time.”
Yvonne: But we still need to make an effort ourselves to do God’s will for the church, together.
Howie: ….AAAAAND she’s making us talk in tandem. THAT MEANS A WRAP-UP, FOLKS!
Howie: but yeah, she’s right.
Yvonne: *glares at Howie*
Yvonne: I hope this helps, Anon
Howie: As do I. Though, I DO want to mention something else… While this particular question did lead to this particular DISCUSSION, hopefully clearing up some things for some people, I sense a certain… vibe… from the question. I had a friend in highschool who seemed to have the same mindset as you on this one, and would have worded the question similarly. But he is (at least WAS) the kind of person to look around and only see how the church wasn’t exactly… up to snuff, to put it simply. I wanted to note that pointing out apostasy doesn’t seem to be accurate, and pointing out Laodicea seems to be more complaining about something that just IS. Perhaps I’m reading too much into this. If so, I apologize. But accusations and complaining very rarely bring forth positive change, to my knowledge.
Yvonne: Every church will have its issues. We are human; we’re far from perfect. But we keep going in Jesus’ name. If we see a problem, we pray about it, and we go where He wants us to go. And that’s all I have to add.
Howie: I agree wholeheartedly. Anyways, that’s two and a half hours… I think we’ve pretty much completely wrapped up. Know that we prayed about this discussion-bit-thing beforehand, and we hope that this helps whoever God needs it to.
Yvonne: God bless, and have a good night.
Another old favorite of mine, and I apologize for reblogging it and making it take up like, your whole dash. Anywho, I loved this one because it educated myself on a topic I’d only been vaguely aware of, and because of the experimentation with the new format. And chances are, we’ll use it again if another appropriate question pops up. And if we have the time. It was fun. :D
Anywho, that’s all from me for the day! Tune in tomorrow for my favorite graphics!
brichardos said: Helloo.. I'm Indonesian! U know something about Duck-Meat? Based on the bible, can we eat it? as Born SDA i used to know that Duck is a clean meat, since duck was herbivore ,. But my friend told me, that some SDA Pastors said that Duck is unclean meat, Based on bible n EGW writing. can u help me to show the Verse or EGW writing that said Duck is unclean? Thx :D *sorry 4 my bad english*
Greetings, Brichardos! I’ve done a bit of research, and I believe I’ve found an answer to your question ^_^.
As far as the Bible (or at least my research into it) goes, Leviticus 11 is where the restrictions on clean and unclean meat are found. Interestingly, where God’s guidance on BIRDS is found (v. 13-18), instead of saying “anything with such-and-such a quality’s good to eat,” it only shows a list of animals that are UNfit to eat. A LIST! As though to say “yeah… anything other than this? It’s acceptable.” And if you look, ducks are all over the world, INCLUDING Egypt, where the Israelites lived for a while. So if it were unclean, it would be on that list.
As far as EGW goes, she speaks against eating meat in general… as it IS generally less healthy than a vegetarian or vegan diet. While she would not under ANY circumstances eat anything considered unclean, she IS recorded as having eaten both deer and duck while traveling, and only when supplies were running low.
"Our provisions have been very low for some days. Many of our supplies have gone… . We expected supplies three days ago certainly, but none has come. Willie went to the lake for water. We heard his gun and found he had shot two ducks. This is really a blessing, for we need something to live upon.”
E.G. White, Manuscript 12, 1873, p. 3. Published in Manuscript Releases, vol. 7, p. 346.
I hope that answers your question.
My explanation for this one is simple: it caused a lot of rather informative back-and-forth on a matter that we REALLY didn’t expect to turn into a huge thing xD. It actually got its own TAG (Duck Meat)!! It was also one of my first responses. Good memories, this one.